Tabata article

[Gabe Rinaldi]

http://www.cbass.com/SEARCHOF.HTM

[John Seaburg]

I love Tabata style intervals but doing 6-8 is really tough. The only way most people can do that many is if they hold back a little on their first few. Going all out on each interval usually means 3-5 total bouts. Sometimes I'll have people do 3-5of something like rowing then after a few minutes of rest do 3-5 of something else. I've seen higher heart rates and more perceived effort with the 3-5 all out approach than the 6-8 hold back a little approach.

[John Nguyen]

I love Tabata style intervals but doing 6-8 is really tough. The only way most people can do that many is if they hold back a little on their first few. Going all out on each interval usually means 3-5 total bouts. Sometimes I'll have people do 3-5of something like rowing then after a few minutes of rest do 3-5 of something else. I've seen higher heart rates and more perceived effort with the 3-5 all out approach than the 6-8 hold back a little approach.

The subjects in Dr. Tabata's study were elite-level speed skaters who can push themselves equally hard in repeating bouts, while the group you work with and observe isn't at the same level, so in this regard your observation might make sense. Keep in mind that the Tabata group had a critiria in order to mark exhaustion -- when the subjects can't maintain a pedaling speed of 85 rpm, it's game over. Do you have such critiria for your clients to maintain until they fail to?

JN

[John Seaburg]

I was also talking about my personal Tabata interval efforts. If I go all out on each one I'm toast after 3 or 4. At Tempus, we look for a combination of perceived effort, power output, heart rate output, and quality form. Even elite athletes should see a significant decline in power on each interval. Lately, I've been experimenting with different combinations of Tabata style intervals. I think a good goal is to be able to do quality intervals with advanced lifts like Olympic-style weightlifting and kettle bells.

Do you do this type of training with your clietns?

[John Nguyen]

I was also talking about my personal Tabata interval efforts. If I go all out on each one I'm toast after 3 or 4. At Tempus, we look for a combination of perceived effort, power output, heart rate output, and quality form. Even elite athletes should see a significant decline in power on each interval. Lately, I've been experimenting with different combinations of Tabata style intervals. I think a good goal is to be able to do quality intervals with advanced lifts like Olympic-style weightlifting and kettle bells.

Do you do this type of training with your clietns?

I haven't done Tabata-style intervals often with my clients, but when I do I think I'll set minimum criteria (reps/speed/technique) that should be met. But, from the article, it seems that the benefit of the Tabata is also in the "additive" effect that each interval has on top of the previous. So, even if the percentages of maximal oxygen uptake is lower toward the end of the Tabata intervals, the accumulated oxygen deficit was essentially higher than that from the protocal in which subjects worked much harder and at a greater percentage of maximal uptake in each interval.

JN

[shoshanna]

The subjects in Dr. Tabata's study were elite-level speed skaters who can push themselves equally hard in repeating bouts, while the group you work with and observe isn't at the same level, so in this regard your observation might make sense. Keep in mind that the Tabata group had a critiria in order to mark exhaustion -- when the subjects can't maintain a pedaling speed of 85 rpm, it's game over. Do you have such critiria for your clients to maintain until they fail to?

JN

Good news, the subjects in Tabata's article, while still varsity level athletes (table tennis, baseball, swimming, etc), were actually not elite-level speed skaters...So I believe his data is even more applicable to our clients.

It's my understanding that Tabata's original research, in 1996 (Effects of moderate intensity-endurance and high intensity-intermittent training on anaerobic capacity and VO2max) established the fact that high intensity interval training of 20-s exercise and 10-s rest is significantly more effective at improving BOTH anaerobic and aerobic capacity than longer-duration aerobic training alone.

However, the anaerobic interval sessions in Tabata's study lasted ONLY 3-4 min during each training session, so that each interval would stress the anaerobic system completely. The goal was to work the subjects to exhaustion in just 3-4 min.

I understand that the practical application of Tabata's research is to ask clients to perform several intervals of 3-4 min "Tabata style" work.

My question is this: Is anyone able to truly work at the level of intensity Tabata recommends (170% VO2max) if we are fatiguing after the first 3-4 min interval? If we are not working at this high anaerobic intensity during subsequent intervals, are we not essentially utilizing the aerobic metabolic systems? Would it be just as beneficial, and more efficient, to ask someone to go "all out" for just the one-4 min interval used in Tabata's study?

These questions may not matter in a practical setting, because if clients are working at their highest personal level of intensity, throughout the session, they are still receiving Tabata-esque benefits....?

SM

[Gabe Rinaldi]

To the best of my knowledge I've never seen a study that looks at a workout like "Tabata This" and analyzes the effect on anaerobic and aerobic systems. That being said, here are some observations:

mixing modes allows one to work at a higher intensity for a longer duration; e.g., you can work at a higher output if you do a tabata row and a tabata pullup vs. if you do 16 sets of 20 on 10 off on just the rower

VO2 max is somewhat dependent on the mode - an elite cyclist will have a different VO2 number on the bike vs. running

An elite cyclist will get "gassed" more than a crossfitter doing a workout like Fight Gone Bad

So, what does this mean to me?

The trainer must pick the volume of work that optimizes intensity for the given improvement desired.

As "fitness" improves the volume and intensity can go up.

"Fitness" will improve to a greater extent by mixing modalities at high intensity.

lower intensity mono-structural cardio is the least effective way to optimize fitness

Continual practice on high intensity functional movements in a random fashion improves one's ability to maintain power output on activities like Tabata.

An elite CrossFitter like Greg Amundson can maintain an insane output on "Tabata This".

[John Nguyen]

Good news, the subjects in Tabata's article, while still varsity level athletes (table tennis, baseball, swimming, etc), were actually not elite-level speed skaters...So I believe his data is even more applicable to our clients.

SM

Good find, that the Tabata's subjects were varsity-level athletes. I was referencing his subjects against Seaburg's clients at the Tempus Clinic, who typically have clinical conditions.

[John Nguyen]

My question is this: Is anyone able to truly work at the level of intensity Tabata recommends (170% VO2max) if we are fatiguing after the first 3-4 min interval? If we are not working at this high anaerobic intensity during subsequent intervals, are we not essentially utilizing the aerobic metabolic systems? Would it be just as beneficial, and more efficient, to ask someone to go "all out" for just the one-4 min interval used in Tabata's study?

These questions may not matter in a practical setting, because if clients are working at their highest personal level of intensity, throughout the session, they are still receiving Tabata-esque benefits....?

SM

No matter at what level of physical fitness, if a capable individual works genuinely hard through the Tabata-style workout, she will tap into her anaerobic system. As she fatigues during subsequent intervals, she will already be in oxygen deficiet, so even at a lower output, she should still be using an appreciable percentage of the anaerobic metabolism.

The ten-second recovery periods allow the individual to work harder with each work interval, providing more anaerobic work, and I understand that the accumulation of high-level work is thought to be one of the factors in producing the result Dr. Tabata found.

In any case, over the year, I have found that Tabata-style intervals have been extremely effective at producing fitter clients in very little time. Regardless of the accuracy of percentage of VO2max achieved by a client during one of my sessions, if they are huffing and puffing and on their knees at the end, I guarantee you that they will become much fitter.

[John Seaburg]

My question is this: Is anyone able to truly work at the level of intensity Tabata recommends (170% VO2max) if we are fatiguing after the first 3-4 min interval?

SM

I've never seen anyone complete eight 20/10 intervals with 100% effort on each one. At my best I can do 4 or 5. Maybe an elite athlete coud do 8 but I have my doubts. It's like the bodybuilder who says all his sets are to failure when he could have squeezed out one more rep here and there.

I believe performing more than 4-5 Tabata intervals requires sandbagging on the first few. I've used different scoring systems to get people to give 100% on each interval. I've also used a method that tapers sandbagging so their gradual incresse in effort on the last interval progesses to 100%.

What I'm not too sure about is how many different sets of Tabata intervals can one do in a single workout and not overtrain? The most I've put people through is three. That's also the most I've done myself.

- John

[Gabe Rinaldi]

John,
You should go over to Santa Cruz and do a few workouts with Annie, Nicole, Greg A, etc. Go to FIT and do Tabata This with Jimmy, Analisa, Scott or someone else. The body is an amazing machine that is able to adapt.

I've never seen anyone complete eight 20/10 intervals with 100% effort on each one. At my best I can do 4 or 5. Maybe an elite athlete coud do 8 but I have my doubts. It's like the bodybuilder who says all his sets are to failure when he could have squeezed out one more rep here and there.

I believe performing more than 4-5 Tabata intervals requires sandbagging on the first few. I've used different scoring systems to get people to give 100% on each interval. I've also used a method that tapers sandbagging so their gradual incresse in effort on the last interval progesses to 100%.

What I'm not too sure about is how many different sets of Tabata intervals can one do in a single workout and not overtrain? The most I've put people through is three. That's also the most I've done myself.

- John

[John Seaburg]

John,
You should go over to Santa Cruz and do a few workouts with Annie, Nicole, Greg A, etc. Go to FIT and do Tabata This with Jimmy, Analisa, Scott or someone else. The body is an amazing machine that is able to adapt.

I agree, The human body can adapt to many harsh things but sometimes there's a price to pay. If we couldn't adapt, we wouldn't be here today. Our ancestors had to survive ice ages, famines, etc. However, sometimes we abuse this ability/gift. Too much intense exercise, starvation diets, and poor sleep are all things most can adapt to in the short run with consquences in the long run.

I think the biggest challenge of being a trainer is figuring out what the right amount of intensity, volume, and variety is for each client. This is why I don't think set/rep schemes, imposed time limits/goals and periodization plans work well for the masses.

[jlorenz]

From a non-elite crossfitter.....

We did a tabata WOD today and I must admit - I paced myself.

WOD: 8 x 20/10 intervals, 1 min rest, 5 exercises: Row, Squat, Pushup, Pullup, SL Situp. 24 minutes total.

The scoring was: sum of the minimum number of reps in worst interval for each exercise.

Going all out, for me, means being gassed by the 8th set. So I set a pace that I thought I could maintain for all 8 rounds for each exercise - rather than risk only a few reps on the last set.

Had the scoring rubric been different - (total of all sets ?) - I *might* have taken a different approach but I'm not sure. I still might have held back a little - to avoid complete failure on the last few sets.

Had the instruction been - "go all out each round with no other scoring, failure is OK", then I would have worked harder during the first sets for sure.

Anyway - I think Tabata This is a very fine structure for building a WOD. I hate it because it hurts, and I love it because it works.

-jim-

[Gabe Rinaldi]

I agree, The human body can adapt to many harsh things but sometimes there's a price to pay. If we couldn't adapt, we wouldn't be here today. Our ancestors had to survive ice ages, famines, etc. However, sometimes we abuse this ability/gift. Too much intense exercise, starvation diets, and poor sleep are all things most can adapt to in the short run with consquences in the long run.

I think the biggest challenge of being a trainer is figuring out what the right amount of intensity, volume, and variety is for each client. This is why I don't think set/rep schemes, imposed time limits/goals and periodization plans work well for the masses.

too much intense exercise is just that - too much intense exercise

the optimal amount of intense exercise is well - optimal

these are relative terms; i.e., optimal for some might be too much for others

with proper planning, sleeping, eating, etc. the body can adapt favorably

I'll leave it at that before we start a debate that has been discussed numerous times over the years...